You Unleashed with Femi Akinyemi
You Unleashed with Femi Akinyemi
Thriving & Reviving Relationships: Insights from Kemi and Bode Olutunbi on Self-Love, Communication, and lasting intimacy
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Unlock the secrets of thriving relationships with Kemi and Bode Olutunbi on this special episode of the You Unleashed Podcast. This dynamic couple brings their passion for nurturing and enhancing both personal and communal bonds to the forefront, offering listeners a wealth of insights drawn from their own experiences as well as a foundational Harvard study. We promise you'll gain a deeper understanding of how strong, healthy relationships profoundly enrich mental, emotional, and physical well-being. It's all about starting with self-love and acceptance, which set the stage for successful, fulfilling life outcomes.
Join us as we unravel the essential elements of building healthy relationships, starting with self-awareness and the recognition of individual needs. Through compassionate communication and an open-hearted approach, Kemi and Bode share how transitioning from implicit assumptions to explicit understanding can transform interactions, fostering meaningful connections. Their wisdom, grounded in faith and personal growth, highlights the importance of vulnerability and authenticity, especially within marriage, and offers practical guidance for navigating co-parenting after separation.
As we journey through the importance of legacy and investing in future generations, this episode emphasizes creating a loving and supportive environment. Kemi and Bode offer a faith-based perspective on forming a shared identity and embracing an "us" paradigm, complete with actionable advice for couples keen on nourishing their partnerships. Don't miss the chance to learn from their invaluable experiences and discover how prioritizing your relationship can lead to personal and communal success. Get ready to inspire your path to healthier, happier connections.
you unleashed podcast with Femi Akinyemi um, it's great to have you. And this week I've got a special, special episode. It's something different. We're going to have a three-way podcast but actually it's two-way because by the time we're done you'll understand. Because it's a podcast with an amazing couple who are passionate about relationships and marriages and communication. So they're a package, so they come as one, so really it's just a package with one person actually, and you'll find as you go how in sync they are, but it's a pleasure to have them.
Femi:We'll be talking about marriage relationships, how we can all get better at it and how we can get better individually to get better at marriages and relationships as well, because relationships are the bedrock of every marriage. So we have Bode and Kemi, a husband and wife team who do life together at home and at work. They're passionate about supporting others in building healthy relationships and discovering their purpose in God. They lead the marriage ministry in their local church and have encouraged, taught and counseled and coached countless couples in building healthy church and have encouraged, taught and counseled and coached countless couples in building healthy marriages and homes. They've been involved in the marriage course and they're also one of the couples featured in the Marriage by Design, pre-marriage DVD series developed by Care for the Family, and they're also trained marriage consultants and behavioral consultants and they also train marriage consultants and behavioral consultants and they are always on conferences and seminars talking about relationships. Kemi and Bodhi, it's a pleasure to have you. Welcome to the Unleashed podcast. Thanks for joining us.
Kemi:Thank you so much, it's a delight.
Femi:Thanks for having us no problem. So marriage is something and relationships, and we should probably start from relationships before we get into marriage, right, because even if you're not married, you almost certainly want to be in a healthy and fruitful relationship with whoever you are in. And this is quite important because we are all in relationships, whether it's at work, in business, in our local church, within our nuclear families and extended families. Relationships are the bedrock of society and life. Where there are two people, there's a relationship and to a certain extent, even with yourself you're in a relationship, which is another level. So I guess I've kind of seeded you up. But the question here is why are relationships?
Kemi:so important? That's such a good question because as we've touched on relationships, as we've experienced relationships, we've come to the conclusion it's not new that relationships are important because they have a positive impact on both our mental, emotional, physical, health and well-being. The reality is that if you're not happy in yourself or in your relationships, you're likely to have mental health challenges. There's so many stats that show us. I mean, recently I was reading a report the longest studied actually in the world on human relationships, and it's by it's by Harvard Business School actually and they were talking about how the secret to a long and healthy life lies in forging and maintaining glued, closed relationships with other people. So there's nothing really that we do in life that doesn't involve other people.
Kemi:But I think it starts with the relationship you have with yourself first. So it's about loving yourself, accepting who you are as a person, because you can't give what you don't have. Think about all the failures and all the successes in life that come about. It's usually as a result of one relationship going wrong or another relationship going right. So relationships are so, so critical, whether they're with a husband, a wife, whether they're with parents and their children or siblings. Relationships, I mean there's a phrase I don't know you might have heard it that talks about how this is in the Christian context, but I think it applies as well when it talks about how relationships in the kingdom move at the speed of that. The kingdom of God moves at the speed of relationships. If you bring that to everyday language as well, our lives move at the speed of the quality of our relationships lack of relationships or abundance of relationships.
Bode:And you can take that into any context. Really, as Kemi was speaking, speaking mainly about maybe the domestic or the family relational context or the church relational context. You can broaden it and think about any relational context. In any relational context or in any context, we're really trying to create value in every context, whatever that value might mean. Maybe the language value might be something that is more apt for the business context, but really even in the family, if you have a healthy family relationship, the family is thriving, everyone is achieving or aspiring or moving towards what God has called them to be, then there is value being created. If you're fulfilling purpose in life, value is being created. So, when you think about it, nobody creates value on their own. So, when you think about it, nobody creates value on their own. You need people to create value. You need staff, or you need colleagues, or you need someone in your network, or you need someone to bring a perspective or you need someone to encourage you. So there's always some sort of connection or the other going on between people and in the context of the connections going on within people, some sort of value is being created. I mean, if you stop to even think about the Trinity. Value is being created because the Trinity is well connected with each other. The person, the tripartite person of the Trinity is well connected with each other. That's where that mega value is being created.
Bode:So for us here, as human beings as well, we can't do anything special on our own. So the challenge really is how do we make sure that the relationships that we have thrive, how do we make sure we can't walk away from relationships and be whole and be complete? So how do we make sure that, or be healthy, like Kemi just highlighted? So how do we make sure that relationships, the relationships that we have and the ones that we seek, that they thrive and that we get more savvy at how we manage them, how we deploy them, how we work them, for the want of another word. So that's really the critical challenge that all of us on earth have to do.
Bode:I mean, we look at nations and the way I know life in itself, everything they are. How do I want to call it? Not call it. Life can be fractious at different points in history, and this is probably one of those points in history where you just need to stop, take a quiet moment and you can think of altercations happening between nations in different parts of the world right now. When you you think about it, at the bottom of the heart of the matter is the quality of the relationships that these nations have with each other. Some of it is influenced by dynamics and the way those relationships have been managed from generations. Some of it is just influenced by the dynamics of the way the current management of those relationships. But at the heart of it it's a matter of relationships. The better we get at relationships, the more value is created, the more positive outcomes we have and the more we are getting closer to what God has ordained for us here on earth. So I don't think we can sell. That's a strong business case for relationships.
Femi:No, it's amazing because when you talk about value as well, so that tells me as well that when you're in a relationship, there's also it's about both people, or all parties, getting something out of it. Because if you're not getting something out of relationship and that's why we hear relationships break down is because, for whatever reason and there can be many one, one person feels shortchanged, or one person feels like they're not getting value for what they're putting in, or the other person feels like you're getting more than you're putting in. And that's a relationship is about value. So it's about it's not in a vacuum. You just don't be in a relationship for just the sake of it. You're in a relationship because you believe the whole is more than the parts. So all of you, to get all of you together, create something that is greater than all of you individually, and I think that's that's really, really beneficial.
Femi:So the question then becomes what does a healthy, high functioning relationship look like? Because for a lot of us we don't really know what it's like. We model our good on what we've seen others do. So for those of us who are married, for example, we've seen our parents' marriage in some cases, and we think that's what a good marriage looks like. Or we've seen our parents' marriages and said, no, the absolute opposite is what a good marriage looks like. Or we've seen colleagues in the marriages and said, no, the absolute opposite is what a good marriage looks like. Or we've seen colleagues in the workplace and said that's the relationship I want to model, and it doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing. So the question then is what does a high functioning, healthy relationship look like, or what should it look like, and what should they feel like?
Kemi:like, yeah, so as you were speaking about that, obviously the principles don't really the principles work for everyone, whether you're a christian or not, or whether you're a muslim. So I was just thinking about whatever, or whatever, whatever faith you might have.
Kemi:But I was just going to draw from the example that Jesus has muddled for us on what a good relationship would look like, and I think, at the foundation of it. Firstly, it's about you having a good awareness of who you are, because it's difficult to have good relationships if you don't know who you are. So it starts with you being aware of you, know what drives you, what motivates you. There is that. There's also the second bit around knowing that you're valuable, Because sometimes the challenges we're experiencing in relationships is because we're not valuing ourselves or valuing other people. Every human being is made in the image of God, bottom line, which means that we treat each other with respect. What does respect mean? Respect means having healthy boundaries around how we communicate with others, how they also communicate with us, Because you know there is that angle. The words we speak are powerful. The actions we take they're powerful in really making sure that you know the relationships that we're building are healthy. So if I'm speaking to people in a certain way, or if I'm not valuing myself and even speaking to myself in a certain way, that's not in line with, maybe, this value that I'm talking about in terms of us having value in God's eyes. Then, of course, there are issues I cannot give what I don't have. You know I'm going to the me that I present, how I show up, says a lot about what I believe about myself and how I treat other people as well. So when we come to talk about successful relationships, it's also a dialogue, having conversations with people. It's about selflessness, because you asked a question how do we know what a good relationship looks like? So we take our cue from Jesus because we're faith-based, but you can learn even from that Sacrificial, not thinking about our own interest alone, but thinking about other people's interest as well. And then not taking a short-term view, because if it's all about me, me, me, me, then really think about it. How is that going to benefit the greater good? So I think there's a lot about thinking about our motives. You know, what do I want out of this relationship? And being honest with ourselves as well. Is this about me or is it about us? So just dropping a few things around building healthy relationships. But I think, if I sum it up, it really just starts off with how you see yourself and how you treat other people as well. Now, if you've grown up in a dysfunctional home, it would definitely affect. Regardless of what home you've grown up in. It's going to affect your view of what a good relationship looks like, and this is why it's always good to have, like you know, something that you go back to.
Kemi:What does a good relationship look like? And this is why it's always good to have something that you go back to. What does a good relationship look like? Not based on what I have grown up with, and it doesn't mean that you haven't grown up with good relationships. And this is where, for us, going back to our faith is like at the essence, because we can't define what good is. We all have our perceptions, but if we look at the basic, going back to the beginning, what do we know? It's about looking at Jesus as our model in terms of how he treated other people, the things he did or the things he did not do. Yeah, let me stop there.
Bode:I think, and just probably from what Kemi has said it's also about looking at the relationship that well, if you're Christian, looking at the relationship that you have with God now and how he deals with you. So in a relationship where we judge the other person or where we relate with them based on judgments and judgments are usually informed by our own assumptions and which are based on our own perspective to an issue you can see how narrowly angled that becomes and how perhaps unfair it would be to the other person. But a relationship like that is not likely to thrive because it's not based on the flow in that relationship is being blocked by judgments. Also, if you think about how God relates with us, he relates with us believing better of us, even more than we conduct ourselves. So a relationship that is healthy is one where both parties believe better of each other than just the outcomes that they see physically happening in their interactions with each other. So if everything that the other person does is something that I need to tick on the box and say, okay, you've done this, now I'm going to keep relating with you, just purely based on this, then it's going to again cause a bit of a hindrance to the relationship. So, again, if we look at our relationship with God, good relationship is one where I've heard someone say I think it was a quote that a good. They were referring to marriage then and they said a good marriage is a place where you have two eternal forgivers with each other. No one is perfect.
Bode:So when you go into relationships and if you think about your best friends, sometimes we complicate matters by trying to make it very, very intellectual. Let's just be very practical about this. You have really good relationships with some people. Why do you have those relationships with them? Why do you flow so well with your friends from school? For some friends from school and not from others, it's because they don't judge you. It's because they accept you the way that you are. It's because they believe the best of you. It's because they are ready to go out of their way for you. It's because that's why you enjoy their company. It's because they pay attention to you, not to themselves.
Bode:You know and I think Kemi mentioned it, probably you mentioned it as well as you're asking the question A relationship is a two-way thing. So it's about one person seeking the best of the other. And yes, you mentioned it, femi, when we talked about what a relationship was, and you talked about, and we're talking about, the dynamics even at national level, and you talked about the fact that there are interests. People have individual interests. They also have individual needs.
Bode:So once we begin to stop focusing on people just based on how they are behaving and the outcomes that we're seeing and we start to look at what does this person need? It takes an open heart, it takes a compassionate heart, it takes an accommodating heart to relate to people that way. But once you begin to focus more on what they need what is the need here? Even if somebody acts in a certain way, what is the need? What's driving the need? What's behind the action Then you begin to get deeper in your relationship with that person. It influences the way you engage with them and it influences the outcomes that you get in your interaction with them. So try and imagine a situation where two individuals are interacting with each other, not just based on the actions, but say what does this person need? I see the action, but what do they need? It's a much more compassionate and engaging way to engage Another. What do they need? It's a much more compassionate and engaging way to engage Another very interesting thing which God does with us so well, is any relationship that is going to thrive.
Bode:You must constantly Kemi said it earlier on that it's a journey. On that journey you're trying to get better, isn't it? In your interactions with each other. On that journey, you must constantly be trying to move from what is implicit to what is explicit. It's so important. What do I mean? I said earlier on that we all well. I said earlier on that there's a lot of situations. We find situations where people judge each other and stuff like that.
Bode:And I talked about assumptions. We all have assumptions. The truth is, we all have assumptions Because we need some sort of data to start our interactions with other people. So we assume certain things or we assess the situation and we have certain judgments and it's important that we have something to work with. But then, as we keep interacting with people, we then begin to either couple one or two things to it. If we choose to couple curiosity to our assumptions, that statement and I'm sure you've heard that, the listeners have probably heard the statement where it says assumption makes an ass of you and me, sounds really nice, sounds really smart.
Bode:I believed that for a long time, but more recently, as I've thought about it and I've read around this area, it's not so much the assumption. That makes an ass of you and me is when we make an assumption and then we stay there and we say this is everything I need to know and we stay in that closed zone in our mind and we now try and engage with people based on our assumption. But if we have an assumption, we say, okay, this is what I know so far, and then we then open up our minds to being curious. We are constantly asking questions. We will get more data. Some of it will validate the assumption and we will stay where we are. Some of it will negate the assumption. I will be like, oh no, I got it wrong there. It's because we are humble enough to say my relationship with this person.
Bode:I am constantly trying to move from what is implicit, what is implied, what I assume, to what is explicit, what is implied what I assume, to what is explicit, what is mutually agreed between us, what they also see as the truth or the reality, just like I'm looking at the reality from my own perspective. And that is very important because can we mention something? Earlier on, she talked about how we have filters, different things and how we she talked about how whole we may be or may not be and how, whoever we are, we bring into the relationship and it has an impact on the relationship. A lot of that dynamic has to do with filters that we have, biases, things that we have to control over. But we've gone through life and we've experienced certain things and it's shaped off in certain ways. That's not a problem.
Bode:The biggest challenge is the humility of how to say I am not perfect. I am going into a relationship where I want to invest to get something that is closer to we don't get the perfection until we're with Christ or to get from it is closer to perfection, and the only way I can do that is by learning. So I am open to learning. So what I know might be implied, but I am now moving into a place where it is mutually understood and that is a place of explicit situations. So we're constantly trying to move from implicit to explicit. If you get that right, it can transform the way you result. Let me give you a simple example of how that will work in practice. It means you're constantly asking more questions than you are trying to convince someone. It means you're constantly trying to understand the person, that you are trying to get your own point across, because you want clarity. You want their own world, you want to get their own.
Femi:The better you understand someone, and I was reading that in my devotional today about when you invite someone. It's about trying to daily learn more about the person and be curious about the person, and you really want to have a PhD in whoever your partner is, because when you know them well, then the assumptions go away and assumptions get rid of judgments, and then you see them truly, them for you, you see them truly, and when you see them truly, the person feels seen and then it becomes an authentic, real relationship and that's that, that's that's the essence of it. So the question that I had is I will make a nice segues, because I think you've kind of touched on some of the things stopping us from having effective relationships, because I was going to talk about that and I think you've ended up talking about the judgment, the assumptions that we have, although there's one thing I do want to speak to you about I know you're experts in that which is important relationships and this kind of ties in with it as well, which is the c word communication. But all of this kind of ties in, well, I'd like to make a segue into marriage, then, because that's one of the things I do want us to share here is what, then, are the found, now that we've spoken about relationships, we've spoken about the importance and we now established that marriage is really a living, breathing relationship that you're both committed to.
Femi:There are lots of other relationships where you go into it and you kind of go. It's a transient relationship. At some point we can both off-board and come off and go our separate ways and, by and large, that is still the essence of marriage today. When most people go into it, they go into it with the essence that we are going to get into a lifelong relationship to it, with the essence that we are going to get into a lifelong relationship. So what, then, are the foundations of a healthy, fruitful, loving and whatever adjective you want to use, of? Let's just keep it simple what are the foundations of a good marriage? And I know we can go on for a long time, but within the short time we have, if we keep it nice and putty for our listeners so that they can because I know we're going to need to bring it back and go deeper into this- sure.
Kemi:So I think, as you spoke, that when, as we've all kind of fed into this I wanted to mention something that's so, that's always going on, that sometimes we're not articulating as human beings what stops us having effective, fruitful relationships. A lot of times it's fear. We're afraid of what's going on, but we're not showing up and saying you know, when we communicate. If I came and said, oh, bode, this is what my need is, maybe when you do this, bode, this is what my need is, maybe when you do this, I'm afraid this might happen. It's different from coming in and saying to Bode, you always do this. I bring that up because when you're afraid, you're afraid to be vulnerable. When you're fearful, you're acting based on all of these things that Bode said, things that aren't explicit.
Kemi:So when you come to ask about what makes a healthy married, I think the first thing really is honesty, vulnerability and truthfulness. I mean, we all know that, even in the business world, there's a lot of conversation around being authentic, around being honest, around being open, around being authentic, around being honest, around being open. So I think the first thing is that nakedness and vulnerability, creating an environment and an atmosphere in your marriage where we can be ourselves. And when I say we can be ourselves, I'm not talking a bit about this selfish. You know, this is who I am.
Kemi:No, no, no. It's about how do we build a home, a safe haven, where we can both come, be vulnerable, sharing our witnesses, sharing our thoughts. You know, when we talk about healthy marriages, we always use this analogy. I don't know for those who swim, they probably would identify with it. When you get married, it's a bit like you know, when you go swimming, if you're a swimmer initially, you are in at the early, bit like when you go swimming, if you're a swimmer Initially, you are in at the early, you're going, you don't want to go into the deep end. So you're talking about things that are just, you know, not surface.
Femi:You're just. You didn't mention chemistry. You didn't mention and let's be real here a lot of people want to go into a relationship. You want to go to a leadership with someone that you find attractive. You want to go to someone that you think has chemistry. So where do those things sit in this, in this list? Are they unimportant?
Kemi:now, sure, not at all. God doesn't even want us. Why would I want you to be with someone you're not excited or attracted to? The only thing is you can't base your whole marriage just on that. In a marriage, you have different types of love. So let me start, if I use that and then, because of course it's important, I'm attracted to my husband. I'm sure you're attracted to your wife as well, and we need that attraction.
Kemi:In a marriage. You need four different types of love. You've got the eros love, which is the attraction. Of course we must, because sex is a part of our marriage and it's a gift that we need to enjoy. So you need the eros kind of love. You also need the filial, the friendship, because the friendship sustains you. You know that we're marriage counselors and sometimes in counseling you just realize that this couples aren't friends. They haven't invested in their friendship. How do you invest in your friendship? You're not going on dates, just laughing together, doing the things that you do with your friends. It just becomes about okay, this is what we're doing as husband and wife. So your friendship is very, very important. Of course, you also need the filial kind of love in your marriage as well, and you need their agape. Their agape is for the Christians, but you don't have to be Selfless. Love is just Admitted. You know there. But you don't have to be Selfless. Love, it's just Admitted. You know there are days you don't like your spouse.
Bode:Selfless love.
Kemi:But do you work out of your marriage because you don't like your?
Kemi:spouse On that day On that day. So it's about. So what? Where we're going is. Attraction is important, but you can't base your marriage just on attraction. There's only so much sex you can have. There's only so much. It's got to be more. We're all looking to be seen, to be known. You know, to be accepted the world out there is really hard. So how do we create an environment where we can be our true selves, where we don't have to have, you know, clothes on, hiding from each other? It takes each party in the marriage to say you can trust me with your heart, so you're not. That's the environment, because the challenge is that poison, the judgment is the poison, but that's not easy for men.
Femi:But you know, and if we're going to say again, if we get real, it's because men find it hard to be vulnerable, because and if you've grown, then it's easier. But men can find it hard. And with men sometimes we open up a bit and if that vulnerability is weaponized against us, we can shut down for a long time, if not forever. So I think there's also an understanding on both sides of our different natures and when men are vulnerable, it's women appreciating that this is a really sensitive time and he doesn't do it lightly. But it also meant understanding that you need to be vulnerable for a woman to feel like this relationship is going to the next level, that it's going deeper, because we both work on different levels. And is that something you find that couples know instinctively? Or they have to learn or they need to learn when it comes to that sort of part of like foundations and being authentic and being a makehead, yeah, and being a mickhead.
Bode:What we've found is actually that to a large extent, the whole gendered differentials around capacity to be vulnerable or proclivity to be vulnerable is true, but it is not a standard. You might go into a relationship where you find the guy is very open to being vulnerable just because of the journey that he's been on getting to the point where they got married, and the lady, because of the journey she's been on, really struggles to be vulnerable. So vulnerability is key to thriving in a relationship.
Femi:What does vulnerability mean? I mean, can you take what's the word here? Can you take it down another level? Because that vulnerability I sense I know what it is and that's because I sort of play in this space. But in practical terms, what does an instance in a relationship, what does a vulnerability in a relationship, look like? If you give us an instance, a snapshot of what it looks like?
Bode:Okay, and one important thing is that, as we, the way we function as human beings, there's a lot of narratives that's going on in our minds that influences the way we behave, the way we act, the way we judge the things that we see. The so, in other words, what you are seeing and experiencing in my relationship with you, is, to a large extent, the function of what is not seen. The moment you can open the other person to the world that they don't see the layer beneath.
Femi:What is making? You see, I make those decisions, I say the things you say.
Bode:Exactly so. A lot of your thoughts, your inner thoughts. You're sharing your inner thoughts with each other. You are being very vulnerable with each other. You don't get there in one day.
Bode:In fact, I and Kemi, in the work that we do with couples, one of the most important things we say a lot of things when it comes to. I know your question initially was how do you get a really stable, successful marriage going? So we say a number of things, or we share a number of things with couples, and I'm just going to mention it because they are really helpful here. The first is we're coming from two different points. If we want to have a healthy relationship, we have to create an atmosphere for it, so we're going to need to shift our mindset. So one of the points that are clearly coming from is the fact that, as individuals, we had previous allegiances allegiances to my family, my own nuclear family, before I met her, and so with her as well. I had allegiances to my friends, and so with her as well, and, depending on the degree of the relationships that I have with individuals in my family and my friendships, they owned a huge space in my heart and a huge space in my time, a huge space in terms of my affections, and I'm not saying that I now have to abandon those relationships. In fact, me getting into a relationship, into marriage, should bless or be a benefit to those relationships. People should look at me five years from or five years after I got married. Wow, I never knew I could experience this, such this much of value from Bode. But now that Bode is with Kemi, I experience so much more. This is an even better version of Bode. Or I experience Bode and Kemi, you know, in such a special way, more than I did Bode alone. So that's what should happen.
Bode:Bode, it's a journey. So what? That journey starts because we choose us. We change our mindset. We say it's not about me, bode, it's not about her, kemi, but it's about us. So we embrace an us paradigm. So in the church palace we would say we live to cleave we. We would say we live to cleave. We become one entity and that's what God is expecting from us as well.
Bode:So it's a shifting of emotional commitments, a shifting of mindsets, a changing of paradigms. And that takes time because it also means a changing of habits and stuff like that, but it's easier when we surface our thoughts oh, I actually what I was thinking to do when I did X was actually Y, and we don't sweat the small stuff. I knew you were trying to do Y and I was just waiting for you to complete that process before I flagged it up like, hey, x is what we agreed. So you see, it's a loving environment where we are both committed to a changing process. That's one environment where we are both committed to a changing process. That's one, in that loving environment that is committed to a changing process. We are literally forming a new identity.
Bode:Kemi and I like to talk about how our home is a safe haven for us. She was alluding to that earlier on when she started to talk about how difficult it is out there and that when you have a family where there is no judgment, a home where there is no judgment, a home where you feel you can be yourself, and again, being yourself is not so much. This is who I am and this is where I want to stay.
Kemi:Marriage is about change.
Bode:We grow. God expects us to grow. Marriage is about change. Some people say marriage is a university of growth and change. It is so. We go in there knowing that we will change, but it is not for the other person to want to change us. They don't have the capacity to change us. They don't have the ability to change us. We need to make a decision, and we make that decision when we encounter things that makes us see ourselves in God's light and say, ah, now I see this blind spot, this area of a blind spot, or I see myself better. I would want to be this, I would want to be that.
Bode:There is a statement that John Maxwell highlights a lot. No, he has a great way with words. I don't know for any of the listeners who know about John Maxwell, but he does have a great way with words. He talks about leadership and a lot of other things, but there's a statement that he makes that is so apt when you're talking about relationships, whether in marriage or outside of marriage. He says people don't care what you know until they know that you care. People don't care what you know until they know that you care. What that means is that, before you can get the head, the thinking capacity of the person, their mental ascent to engage with you, or, before you can get their hands, their commitment to do something, first you find fantastic. So when you have that kind of mindset, you are gradually creating one identity. It's safe even for each other when, like Kemi mentioned a moment ago, you become the custodian of the other person's heart. You care enough to create an environment where they want to be vulnerable. If that environment is created, whether you're a male, whether you're a female, you know it's a safe place. Every guy I know the toughest of guys they have safe places where they go. It might be where they hang out with other guys. Then they can be open, they feel secure, they feel safe. So it's just about creating that safe space.
Bode:And once you do that, another thing that is very important is fidelity. I need to know that I have an exclusive relationship with you and that, again, that's trust, which is a basic, foundational thing in a relationship. So exclusivity, fidelity, sensitivity. To me as a person, it is not so much what is said about what husbands look like or what wives look like. It is not what traditions say a man should be or what a woman should be. It is the person that I am with that matters. Like you said earlier on and I so much echo it, I need to get a PhD in the person that I'm with. Once I focus on that and the environment is one that is transparent, I can be vulnerable, I have no fear of rejection, the relationship will thrive. So we always highlight that a lot when we talk to couples, but it starts with that mindset of us.
Kemi:And that us mindset is saying we're a team, and I think that that's so, so important. The thought that I had when Buddy was speaking was around. We all know the story of the Titanic and you know what happened. The captain underestimated the size of the iceberg, and it's like that.
Kemi:Sometimes in marriage You're focusing on what you can see. Sometimes in marriage you're focusing on what you can see, but what you're not focusing on that has the most impact is what is not seen. So things along the background, the motifs, the experiences that have made the person, the fears, the person that they are today. So if we're really talking about building a healthy marriage, then the foundations must be not just vulnerability, respect, a curiosity, wanting to know more, not making assumptions, humility, humility, humility, lots of humility. Establishing healthy boundaries, for instance. I remember when we were courting, part of the conversations we had around boundaries was how we resolve conflict, because we respect each other. We can have a disagreement, but we're not going to be yelling at each other. That's not healthy. That's me valuing who I am, but it values who he is. So just some boundaries, because sometimes, where there are no boundaries in a marriage, everything goes and that's the problem. So I hope we shared some stuff around.
Femi:That's useful.
Bode:One thing I will say before we move on is a lot of what we've said has to be discussed before. Before what?
Femi:Before we get into marriage, but that's but the problem is that we don't, a lot of people don't, and and we encounter and then you're trying to retrofit and you may be lucky, I meet someone that personality wise, or you're both of faith and you're both in the same journey and you're both accepting that you're willing to learn, but, as I might be unlucky that sometimes it's just such an uphill battle that if you're not mindset we are doing it together to overcome it, then it just makes so what you said is right. It makes it easier when you did before because it was your hitched. If you don't have the right mindset, it's really hard to overcome that. But that's the good one, because a lot of people don't talk about it's that what you find in a lot of relationships? A lot of people haven't discussed that before they.
Kemi:I'll say in some, but in a chunk, but even if they haven't discussed it. You know I said something that one of the key qualities to a successful marriage is humility, curiosity, wanting to learn. This is a good point to say, okay, look at where we've been, and where we are now Is where we are going to take us to the future. We see or not. If it isn't, what can we do? Because insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. And I know even from we all knew that relationships really, really matter. I have people that I've led or worked with that as a result of something that was happening in their home setting. Work was really tough for them. So sometimes, as well as taking a step back and just thinking about what future do you want to see in your marriage, because the route that you're going down isn't going to help and we haven't even thought about the children or brought them in.
Kemi:A lot of what we go through sometimes is because of what we saw with our parents. So, breaking those patterns, we can learn skills. We do relationship skills for parents, for husbands, for wives. We can learn it even at work. We're learning relational skills myself and buddy. Sometimes we're traveling the world also because we're working with senior wives. We can learn it even at work. We're learning relational skills, myself and Buddy. Sometimes we're traveling the world also because we're working with senior teams on the relationship, not just the technical aspects of it. So it can be learned. But there must be a willingness and humility to say I want to know more, I want to be better and ready to grow. It's about having a growth mindset rather than talking.
Femi:Well, this is the way the culture is, this is the way men are, we men are, and that was going to bring us to my next question, which is as we start to come to the back end of this conversation, which is, I think a lot of us probably know one or two people contemporarily now that are struggling in marriage. And then the question is you look back and you look back at our parents and, rightly or wrongly, a lot of people have a lot of theories about why they stayed together. Some are true or false. I think sometimes we underestimate people's commitment to a life together, so people now trivialize it by saying things like oh, back then women couldn't work, which is true, or sometimes as well, the women were. Actually both couples were committed to it.
Femi:But the thing I want to ask now is, then is what's causing the uptick in? Is it as simple as just economics and social changes? That is leading to more marriages struggling now and some of the battles couples have faced the battles couples have always faced, but it feels like there's not as much grit and resilience sometimes or stickability, and for all of us, sometimes we all struggle. Why is that? What's causing this General?
Kemi:Yeah, I think. Firstly, like we all know, miles Monroe said that if you don't know the purpose of a thing, that thing, there will be a misuse. I think that foundationally and I say this, please, with all respect to all married couples sometimes people don't have the right view of marriage. Sometimes people don't have the right view of marriage. When we go to look at the right view of marriage again, of course I'm going to go to a faith-based approach. Why did God create marriage? Because if you really think about that, then you can walk backwards. Marriage was never meant to be about you, because if you're thinking about your needs, your needs you're not going to be able to be a good influence on your spouse. Marriage is much more than you. Marriage is about legacy. Marriage is about building. Marriage is about teamwork. We all know that acronym. Together, everyone achieves more.
Kemi:So I think the challenge arises when we bring marriage down to something that's dispensable. Let's think what the impact of failed marriages there are stats on this on the children, on even the people. So I think it starts with why did I get married? You've got to be honest with yourself. So there is that angle. Definitely. There's also the angle of the fact that a lot has happened with women over the years. In the past, the power balance was tilted towards men, so women had no choice but to stay at home. Otherwise, where would I go with the children? How are they going to be fed? How are we going to? So they stayed because one. They really wanted to keep their vows, but there were also no opportunities they we going to. So they stayed because one. They really wanted to keep their vows, but there were also no opportunities. They were going to suffer if they left. Now that shouldn't be a problem.
Kemi:If a husband's working in that context, if the husband has the right notion of what marriage is, it's realizing that you're both contributing to the marriage. Might be the one going to work, but if I'm at home looking after the children, you wouldn't have posterity, the things you're doing, you're able to travel and achieve all the success. We are doing it together. So it's also about understanding our roles. Sometimes women are trying to be men, I'm sorry and sometimes men are trying to be like women, sometimes in our generation. So where we're going is we have different roles, not one is more important than other. It's about teamwork.
Kemi:The Bible talks about male and female. He created them. Men are not better than women, women are not better than men, and if we go to the scriptures, where it says a woman is a helper, usually you're helping someone who needs help, who doesn't have what you have. So it's about us seeing each other as gifts. When we then bring it to this, it's also the fact that, when we look at our current culture, a lot of things are not celebrated. It's very divisive around marriage. It's not a culture that enables marriage. There's so many stories that we could share, but I have personal experience going to work in Nigeria over. I'm using Nigeria as an example. It's not only in Nigeria. There was always that pressure of you know, men do their own thing, women do their own thing. Why are you guys being together? All of those things.
Femi:So marriage isn't a celebration. You go their own thing, but you guys are always together.
Kemi:So if you're constantly doing different things, come on, how are you going to connect? There's no time for connection If you've got careers that are really demanding, if everybody is competing. What we should be doing is what is our vision? How can we harness our resources as a couple? Is there a season where somebody might stay at home, somebody might go for a lower paid job, because it's better for us to do that, to enable us to build a home where you know we connect with our kids, where we're values driven rather than money driven? Because what is success if, at the end of the day, you lose your family or you lose your health? So we need to be honest and say really, what do we want to build? We start I mean, we all know from the seven habits of highly effective people begin with the end in mind. These are conversations.
Kemi:Sometimes people are feeling a bit insecure. If a husband isn't treating his wife well, then what's going to happen? She's going to be afraid and she's going to be thinking let me make alternate plans. I can't trust this guy. And it could be vice versa If the husband also doesn't understand that we're working together, that he's going to frustrate his wife because he doesn't want her successful and she doesn't want him successful because I can't guarantee that if he's successful, he's going to look after me. These are all the things that go on in people's minds, but they don't discuss it. So we're building marriages based on fear rather than marriages based on faith and hope and trust. So we end up with something that's less than what we could have Meanwhile, when the scriptures say one can put to flight a thousand to 10,000. So that's why this honesty and openness is so, so important.
Kemi:And where there've been challenges, we don't ignore them, because they don't go away. They just the cracks, just get bigger. It's like a block drain. You keep letting all of these things go through, whether it's rice that you let go through. One day you're going to have a block drain and to unplug it. It's a lot more work and sometimes it's impossible because there's so many things that have happened. So getting the help you need at the right time is important. Yes, very, very important.
Femi:No, that's pretty much you you've said she said it all. Right, I think that's you did so I appreciate that and um, so I guess now.
Femi:So we know what the foundations of my wage are, we know why my just struggling and I think I'd like to also think of of we mentioned. We know quite a few relationships are struggling. Some people are struggling so as in some cases they've decided this isn't going to work, or let's take time apart or let's go our separate ways. It happens and, um, it's not what they wanted, but it's happened. How can they, especially if they have kids or they don't even? But how can they, especially if they have kids or if they don't even? But how can they and this is a more complex relationship how can they have a functioning relationship, at least if they've got children or that sort of thing? How can they find a way to function in the midst of deciding that they're both going to be separate ways? Is there any advice or guidance to people about how they can function, at least for the benefit of the children and for their own mental well-being as well, to get rid of the poison and the toxicity that can exist sometimes if they don't deal with it?
Kemi:Yes, I think there are a couple of ways. I think the first thing is being honest about the pain that you feel and taking time out, if you've already decided that you're going your separate ways, to really think about the marriage and not blaming anyone for other things that could have been done better, differently. And then sometimes you might need to get counseling yourself so that you can come to terms with the loss because it's a loss, not denying it the anger, the disappointment, everything that comes with it. Once you go through that process of getting healthy, it's a lot easier to then relate with the spouse, ex-spouse or spouse, because then you're relating with them, is recognizing the fact that they're either the mother or the father of your children.
Kemi:We've had situations as marriage ministers as well where, when people are getting married, the atmosphere has been really bad between parents. Maybe some parents have remarried. I mean, I don't want to tell you there's some dramatic stories you won't be so. It's about, you know, all of those years have gone by, these kids that are getting married, the children. It's so distressing for them that on their wedding day, a day of joy, or even in the run-up to it, the parents haven't gotten over what happened 20, 30 years ago. So they feel torn and it's a really sad, sad situation to see. So where we're going is remember they're still the father or the mother of your child. As much as possible, honor and respect them. Don't turn your kids, as much as it might be attractive to you against their father or their mother, because nobody else can be their father or their mother, even if those parents are really bad. Let them find out themselves.
Kemi:Now I say all of that because we haven't brought in situations of abuse, because that's a different dynamic. If there's abuse in the relationship and all of that, then of course you need to protect yourself and protect the children as well. So there'll be a different way that that's dealt with. And then I also think that you know we hear about forgiveness a lot, whether in Christendom or outside of it. You need to go on the journey of forgiveness. Forgiveness is not about the other person and forgiveness doesn't mean reconciliation. Forgiveness is you looking after your own self, releasing things, and then you know living your best life based on your circumstances.
Femi:If you don't forgive someone, it's like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.
Bode:Yeah, it's true. It's so true and also I think one big part can be sort of alluded to it, but it's so important. Think about posterity, think about the future. You do not exist in isolation. There are generations coming after you and generations thereafter and generations thereafter, and what the choices you make shapes the journey of the generations after you, influences their journey. So your life is never really just about you, influences their journey. So your life is never really just about you. So it's as much as I wouldn't want to say this, it's not all just about how you're feeling and what you have experienced. A lot of it is. But then you need to step beyond that and say, okay.
Bode:Again, I refer to COVID. You begin with the end image. So where we are now, there is still an end point. What do we want to see? And I'm hoping that all our listeners are thinking.
Bode:If you're in that sort of situation, you're thinking, okay, I want an end that is better than this current reality, then I'm going to now make choices that will lead in that direction. So there's going to be a lot of magnanimity in my heart towards my ex. There's going to be a lot of understanding towards them. You know, yeah, they are frail. In certain ways I am as well. When I'm reflecting on what got us to where we are, it takes two to tango. There's no way everything could have happened just because they did X. Yeah, so it's also me being objective and being honest with myself. Now, once I do that, once I realize that I'm just as frail as they are, it helps me to manage the relationship in a better way, moving forward. And then I'm thinking what's at stake here? A lot of what is at stake. I probably will get remarried or something. She or he or she will get remarried.
Bode:We go our separate ways. What's tying us together are our children and the generations after us and our own legacy, our own testimony. If we're Christians, our own testimony, my testimony, still has to show that it is reflective of Christ's nature in me, even though I've been through that. So I have to submit that to Christ, to His nature, to His lordship, if I might use that phrase, and that influences the way I conduct myself.
Bode:If I'm not a Christian, I still think about my own legacy. I'm still hoping that anyone listening to me is thinking I want a legacy that is better than where I am, and so they are making those choices that will lead in that direction and they are yielded to honoring the other person, respecting the other person, valuing the other person despite their frailties, accommodating the frailties that the other person has and relating in a very mature way with the other person, and that would influence the choices we're making, let's say, on days like Kemi's just mentioned, on the marriage, on the wedding day of our children. We're making very mature. So I know someone who would say we're making very civil choices, you know that kind of thing, but the outcome is healthy rather than fractious.
Femi:That's so true and as a person of Christian, even as a Christian, you understand that. And if you want to call it combo, if you're a Christian that wants to make prayers that be answered, you know that you need to walk around with peace. And if there is someone that has been so hurt or you've been so hurt, the reality is that it is a ripple, it has a knock-on effect, like you said, legacy into your life. You can never be completely, totally at peace if there is that damaged person, that your actions have led to them being that damaged, because the person is walking around with this bitterness that on a spiritual level, on another level, is projecting in the spiritual realm into into there.
Femi:So you will never quite walk around with that complete peace and and at the same time it's it's also about taking your feelings out of it and just realizing. I know people say time heals, but kevin made a great point. You have to. Time does, but if you don't do the work it will just start on the road. Time heals when you do the work, the counseling, the, everything to make it all come to start the journey of healing, because if you don't, then you won't heal. So I think there's also just that part. That and also once you go into a relationship like my age with someone and that's what you mentioned as well is we look at it at a service level. It is so deep that to disentangle something like that there will always be collateral damage. So you have to be intentional about the way you bring it to an end, peacefully and lovingly. You can't disentangle, or whatever Gwyneth Paltrow calls it. You can't consciously uncouple, as they say sometimes.
Femi:You can't consciously uncouple, but with love. With love and the way that the person knows that I can still call on you if I need you, because, after all, I did commit to you completely once. So, for whatever reason, we are not where we were, but I can still call on you and those are the ones that you know that you're thinking legacy. So, no, thank you for that. So we've spoken a lot and there's so much more to talk about, I guess. To start to wrap it up, if you wanted to give couples now three tips, in your expert opinion, three easy hacks, apart from the more deeper things, what are three things you want to give us? Three tips or advice, or just one that you think? Do this and it will make a difference.
Kemi:Yeah, I think for me it's pretty straightforward. I think invest in your marriage, invest in your relationship. It is so important. It's like you know, I have plants all over the house now. It is so important. It's like you know, I have plants all over the house now and I realized that when I'm watering them, I see the growth that they're experiencing. If you don't invest in your marriage, it's going to cost you. It's going to cost you in, maybe, disconnection from your spouse. You know that the number one reason that people break up is actually drift. Yeah, it's not possible. No, it's just a drift that happens over time in your relationship we something apart?
Femi:we just, we just, we just. We just don't have a connection anymore. We just drifted apart. I don't feel like a person I'm married anymore, exactly so I don't feel I don't recognize the person I married anymore.
Kemi:Exactly.
Bode:So I don't feel anything for you anymore. The goal is because there's no investment.
Kemi:Because we have nothing in common. I don't know what's going on in your world. You don't know what's going on Meanwhile before we got married and even when we got married, we were all over each other like white on rice. So you need to take that time and it's not about what we're doing, talking about bills or children just investing in your relationship. If it's date night, if it's doing finding an activity you can do together, if it's going on a retreat, if it's going away on a weekend, just the two of you. Don't take your relationship for granted. That's definitely my number one.
Bode:I think my number two since you've asked for three Femi would be to keep improving our communication with each other. That's a good point. Communication, we say. Communication is the lifeblood of the relationship.
Kemi:Yes.
Bode:So once there's a constant flow between us, obviously that means paying attention to each other. It means listening, learning to listen not just the surface, listening what is also the undercurrents, what is also being, what's being said and what is unsaid. And as you pay attention to the person, you you learn to hear that, asking questions. Listen, listen, yes, listen, listen, listen and then keep asking more questions, reflecting back on what is being said, checking your understanding. So you spend 70% of your time trying to listen and get understanding from the person and 30% of your time telling them what you want to share. If you do it that way, first thing you'll come across really wise, because when you do share, you're sharing out of what you've learned from them and it's like how did you know that? But the reality is you're paying a lot of attention and you're asking the right questions. But also it means that everybody wants to be listened to. Everybody wants to be listened to.
Bode:It's a gift to listen to somebody else. It's a gift you give to them so they feel really valued. So that will enhance your relationship as well. So, communication, all the aspects of communication, the listening, the sharing, the getting more savvy with your language as well, understanding what filter, what triggers your spouse. Some words, because we've heard them. I have a friend from childhood. They always told her calm down, calm down, because she was a very instinctive, proactive kind of personality and in the culture that she grew up in that was not something that was expected of a woman.
Femi:They said calm down in Europe. They said calm down in Europe as in calm down in Europe you just go off when you say that to her exactly so.
Bode:When that person is now an adult, achieving things on her own, living her own life, and there's somebody just out of, it might not even be flippant. Something's up and I'm like, hey, no, calm down let's, and the person just goes off. But you are her husband at home, She'd understand that. So you should know the trigger words. We I won't trigger what's based on where we're coming from. You should know the filters. It takes time, but because you are interested in understanding the person rather than making them what you expect them to be, once you try to really understand the person all of them the communication is geared towards that and then it makes a huge difference. I would say communication would be definitely number two.
Kemi:Yeah, it's the lifeblood, and then we've kind of wrote this together. You probably laugh. We're Christians, so a lot of our belief in marriage is derived from our beliefs in God. So God created and designed marriage. There's an order, there's a structure. Sex is one of the gifts that you can give in worship to God. So invest in your sex life and your prayer life.
Femi:Because I think we would together. I can imagine a couple using that word against each other it's time to worship. Bless my worship.
Kemi:You mean both the sex and the prayers.
Femi:But I get what you mean People level. That Don't trivialize it. It can be quite Because it serves a purpose, doesn't it?
Bode:It does. It's meant to connect you consistently.
Femi:Because when you're arguing, it can bring you together. When you're happy, it can bring you together.
Bode:It binds you together.
Kemi:It's like oil, isn't? It's like engine oil, you know, if you're not having what separates us from what separates our relationship, it's one of those things, so it's very, very important.
Femi:Yes, because it's in marriage it's it's the safest type that you can have as well, because you can be completely vulnerable in it as well absolutely it's.
Kemi:It's really difficult to keep fighting someone that you're praying with and that you're also being intimate. It's, it's really difficult, that's true, excellent.
Femi:On that note, thank you so much. We have to bring you back on part more so where can people people have listened to this and go and gone. I want to know some of the events. Or first, before we talk about events, where can people people have listened to this and gone. I want to know some of the events. So first, before we talk about events, where can they find out, where can they keep track of you and just get more of your content, or just find out more?
Kemi:Sure, so we have two. So we've got. If they go to lovetalkstv, we have lots of resources in the resources section complementary resources as well as paid resources. We also have a YouTube channel, Two actually. There's the one that's called love talkstv, but then we also have the tight knots one where we've got like 40 or 50 videos. So we lead the marriage ministry in our church. It's called Tight Knots and we have over 40, something like that videos on different aspects, just short videos around, tips on different aspects of marriage, from in-laws to sex, to communication, to conflict resolution, to juggling, demanding careers, just so many things. So, yeah, they can check us out. On the Jesus House. It's called nourishing your marriage under the jesus house series, so they can check that out. And then we also run courses as well, so it's all on wwwlovetalkstv under our academy. They can definitely find us there and um.
Femi:You'll be having an event in the next few weeks that they can come to right.
Kemi:Yeah, so we have this couples workshop that we run virtually and people sign in from different parts of the world. It's very much focused on couples and it's called Simbi, so we have the Simbi Couples Workshop. Understanding us, we're consultants in life, so what we've done is we've brought together some of the tools that we use with corporates, but this one is a Christian expression and so when couples sign up for this, they would get a link. They'll complete a profile each and then we have a joined up report for the couples and we're going to go through it. So it's talking about all the different aspects of your relationship, from in-laws to money, to sex, to communication, to conflict resolution. So that's basically the foundation of the course, and every couple will get like their own personalized couple report which they can also keep referring to even outside of the course. And every couple will get like, their own personalized couple report which they can also keep referring to even outside of the workshop. So we're excited about that.
Kemi:It's on the 16th of November and it starts at 10 am UK time. What we've also done is we've got an annual couples devotional, so we're going to just give that for every couple that signs up. Signs up. They will get that, the journal as well as the devotional Call the Seeds of Love devotional. I forgot about that. Yes, that's the name, lovely.
Femi:Thank you for coming so much. So, everyone, I encourage you. You can see that Bodhi and Kemi have vast amounts of knowledge about relationships, but ultimately, above all, it's from a place of faith, which is the truth, and also they genuinely, genuinely care about relationships. That's the foremost thing about it. So you've heard it. It's about being thanks for listening today. It's about being vulnerable. It's about having the right mindset. It's also about bringing value to the relationship as well. It's about listening, it's about communication, it's about intimacy, but, above all, it's also about putting the other, putting both of you, above your individual needs. That is what the secret is without the fruitful and loving relationship. Kevinemi and Buddy, thank you so, so much for coming. It's been an absolute pleasure and a blessing. Take those tips and invest in your own relationship and, even if you don't have one yet, you've got enough to arm you to get ready for when you're in it yourself. And, with that said, have a great week, get unleashed and stay unleashed.
